buncha old geezers scratchin their heads for a long time under trees and getting nowhere. consensus is impossible.
philosophy argument: i think if you blahblah then this is very plausible. no, no, thats not a relevant point, and i think perhaps if you set aside your prior blahblahblah then you will see why i would conjecture this...... oh? that is a very good point that i hadn't considered. well, that confuses things.
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